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Adhesion Info Updates
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Description

Recent report of material adhesion info being incorrect on PA-CF and Xstrand.

@adam @anolen Please list any specific adhesion information you would like updated for all materials.

Edit Move Xstrand to experimental

Event Timeline

karrad created this task.Oct 30 2018, 12:22 PM
karrad triaged this task as Normal priority.
karrad created this object with edit policy "Restricted Project (Project)".

Xstrand should have a bed temp of 90-95 C, on PEI, with Gluestick.
PA-CF should have a bed temp of 70-75 C, on PEI, Without Gluestick.

Colorfabb recommends a bed temp of 50 C for PA-CF but I had a harder time getting the materials 1st bead to stick at that temp, increasing it to 70-75 C helped and I did not see any issues with the PEI on the bed or the parts being printed in this material.

Would we also want to put in info about post processing for xstrand after we confirm that it aids in part strength? Something like "Post process baking recommended" or with more info"Post process baking recommended at 320 F for 2 hours, leave to cool slowly".

OH!! Xstrand should also have a "dry before use" warning or something like that. The drying recommendations are 13 hours at 158 F, then it should be stored in 30% Relative Humidity or lower when not in use. I am not sure how much of that you want to add into cura.

@anolen We are going to leave bed recommendations (temp wise) out. This information should be held in the profile itself.

The post processing information we can include on the product page and support page for the material, and do not want to include it in the Cura program.

Absolutely, we can put the dry before use in the adhesion information. We will not be able to add in all the extra information about drying, but that will also be included on the product/support page

karrad added a comment.Nov 2 2018, 8:26 AM

@anolen Are there any other adhesion updates you are interested in making?

Current Xtrand:

Current PA-CF:

anolen added a comment.Nov 2 2018, 8:26 AM

I would like ABS to have "Use Glue Stick on PEI if not enclosed" or something like that.

karrad added a comment.Nov 2 2018, 8:28 AM

@anolen Have you tested that with all of the tool heads, or is that an edit you want just for banded/dingy?

adam added a comment.Nov 2 2018, 8:29 AM

do we want to recommend drying PA-CF or are we okay with leaving it out since it has arrived dry? Maybe something to let tech support know?

anolen added a comment.Nov 2 2018, 8:41 AM

@karrad I would like to recommend that for all toolheads and printers, as good as we have gotten with ABS bed adhesion with the PEI and temperature manipulation, for customer use I think it would provide a more consistent hold if they use gluestick. I have to use it when testing ABS more often than I would like to without recommending it, so I would like to recommend it.
@adam PA-CF seems to be good out of the box from my initial testing, I will dry a new reel this weekend and do a comparison test today and Monday and let you know for sure then.

@lansky @Galadriel Thoughts on the ABS recommendation? I am not sure how often you are seeing this in support. My only concern is push back from customers now seeing a recommendation when there wasn't one before.

We could also consider a more generic suggestion:

"If having adhesion problems, use glue stick."
"If seeing corner lift, try a glue stick."
"Large and long prints may require enclosure and/or gluestick"

Pretty open to suggestions, I feel tech support has the greatest weight in the decision here.

anolen added a comment.Nov 2 2018, 8:58 AM

I like those suggestions, I agree that we don't need to say its mandatory but I do see enough inconsistency on my end that I would feel better suggesting it in some way.

I've never actually had to use a layer of glue stick when printing ABS, but usually I tweek the z-offset to raise the nozzle up just a hair from where I usually use it. I will try some ABS prints with glue stick over the weekend if you guys would like.

Galadriel added a comment.EditedNov 2 2018, 9:05 AM

Having extra suggestions never hurts, I feel like these should probably be listed as kind of last options since the PEI reconditioning is more helpful for general bed adhesion difficulties (at least in my experience) and if it's specifically an issue with ABS and the thermal contraction struggle then I have found that aside from maintaining the heat next best option is to just give your model a massive foot print by using a giant brim, this way even if the edge begins to warp you still have a decent chance of the print finishing before it can become detached.

@karrad @anolen

With ABS adhesion our current troubleshooting is to try bed conditioning first (alcohol+wetsanding), then gluestick, then enclosure depending on the situation.

I personally find bed conditioning to be the most effective and hassle free. I think I like "If having adhesion problems, use glue stick" in the Cura notes window. That way it is not required but the info is there if the customer needs it.

TyTh added a subscriber: TyTh.Nov 2 2018, 9:49 AM

Ive never had to use glue on ABS either, so I wouldn't recommend it personally

logan added a subscriber: logan.Nov 2 2018, 12:48 PM

I feel like we're missing one major factor in ABS staying adhered to the bed; turn the cooling fan off. Our current ABS profiles have the fan on. Every single time I print with ABS (whether in or out of an enclosure) the cooling fan gets turned off or the profile will not work. This has always been the biggest factor in corners lifting.
Then try alcohol clean and wet sand.
I have never heard of using gluestick with ABS until now.

What I would like to see in cura is WHY gluestick for each particular material, some it is needed for release, some it is needed for adhesion.

As far as what we should recommend to customers: (in the following order)

  1. clean bed with alcohol
  2. turn cooling fan OFF
  3. wetsand
  4. enclusure
karrad moved this task from Restricted Project Column to Restricted Project Column on the Restricted Project board.Nov 2 2018, 1:24 PM

Okay, after all the discussion we are going to hold off updating the ABS adhesion recommendation for this release. We will need to do more testing for the gluestick, and it appears there is some debate about other suggestions.

Going to leave this open to see if we can come to a consensus.

oliver added a subscriber: oliver.Nov 5 2018, 7:37 AM

I have also had some luck with increasing the temperature of the bed after the initial layer with reducing warping of the part. As well as reduced fan speed and cleaning off the bed with alcohol, just to reiterate what @logan was saying. Also for open air printing with abs, I have found that printing at a higher temp than default has helped with a bunch of problems as well, my current custom profile is printing ABS at 265 Celsius.

Orias added a subscriber: Orias.Nov 5 2018, 8:03 AM
In T4326#79651, @oliver wrote:

I have also had some luck with increasing the temperature of the bed after the initial layer with reducing warping of the part. As well as reduced fan speed and cleaning off the bed with alcohol, just to reiterate what @logan was saying. Also for open air printing with abs, I have found that printing at a higher temp than default has helped with a bunch of problems as well, my current custom profile is printing ABS at 265 Celsius.

We experimented with this a bit in the past, @rufu5 and @karrad may remember the particulars, I think it led to brittle parts.

anolen added a comment.Nov 5 2018, 8:04 AM

Hey @logan and @oliver, are you guys using Chromastrand ABS or IC3D ABS and which colors? I would like to run some tests today with these settings. Thank you!

anolen added a comment.Nov 5 2018, 8:12 AM

@Orias that makes sense, ABS bonds stronger at lower melting points, I am going to print some out to compare so I can get a better feel for the difference.

karrad added a comment.Nov 5 2018, 8:24 AM

iirc, increasing bed temp after the initial layer lead to warped and deformed parts near the base. (it has been a bit though)

oliver added a comment.Nov 5 2018, 8:49 AM

@anolen I was using the white chromastrand ABS for those settings. I have used the white IC3D ABS at home on my personal TAZ and I believe I have had almost no problems with printing in open air there with no problems. I know I have changed some settings but I don't remember exactly what but I don't believe it was any of the above except maybe printing at a higher temp and fan speed.

Orias added a comment.Nov 5 2018, 8:57 AM

Upvoting Logan's ABS > Fan Off recommendation in case it's lost in the fold.

logan added a comment.Nov 5 2018, 9:07 AM

@anolen Those are the settings I use with all ABS, regardless of brand/color. I have not tried printing above 245c as increasing temp seems like the opposite of ideal for a material as viscous as ABS.
100% of the time I print ABS I make the following modifications from default settings:
Initial printing temp: 240
Final printing temp: 240
Cooling fan: OFF - if print contains bridging, fan is maxed at 1% and turned off after bridging complete
Skirt line count: 3
Skirt distance: 5

@oliver I believe @karrad is correct
The reason we often decrease bed temp after the first layer is 110c is at or really close to the glass transition temperature of ABS and ideally you wouldn't want the first layers to stay so soft while you're trying to print on top of them. The biggest factor in warp is cooling; I see where you're going with increasing the bed temp, keeping everything hotter, but just turning the cooling fan off allows the part to cool more evenly. Bed temp too high can manifest as Z-wobble because the bottom of the part is still too soft.

anolen added a comment.Nov 5 2018, 9:48 AM

okydoky, I'll run a few different models to compare and determine the best middle-ground for our customers.

anolen added a comment.Nov 7 2018, 9:30 AM

@logan @oliver @karrad
I have been testing various fixes and wanted to give ya'll an update.
I tried bringing the print temp down but I got repeated strip outs and extrusions just not adhering to the previous layers when I tried printing larger objects, I recommend printing at 260 minimum for Abs on HS and HS+. I know its hot for an amorphous plastic but since we are trying to extrude such a thick diameter of filament it needs to be hotter. Another fix for this is slowing the speeds way down but I have already slowed them quite a bit considering we are advertising speed for these toolheads.
I also tried killing the fan, and while I did have less warp, I did notice a decrease in overhang accuracy in addition to the expected bridging errors (pictures bellow).

NO FAN

CONTROL PRINTS

I have gotten some improvements in adhesion with altered bed temp settings and I am attempting to lower the fan without turning it off completely. More updates coming soon.

I think we may have gotten a little off track here.

@logan You are referring to ALL abs profiles, not just banded/dingy correct?

@anolen I wouldn't worry about changing the main profiles for ABS as for most things I noticed they print pretty good. Getting back on topic I think that we should recommend bringing the fan down to 2% for abs is the part does not have to much bridging or angles above 45 degrees.

logan added a comment.Nov 7 2018, 12:27 PM

@karrad Yes I was referring to ABS profiles in general. Granted, it may not be as cut-and-dry with larger nozzles, but I've found in general our ABS fan settings are way too high, especially with tool heads that have the aero blower fan because it pushes a lot more air.

karrad closed this task as a duplicate of T4598: ABS Fan Settings.Nov 20 2018, 12:36 PM